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BH RADIO 1, «Aktuelno sa…»
Thursday, 27.03.2008.
Edited and hosted by: Semra Duranović - Koso
Guest:High Representative / EU Special Representative, Miroslav
Lajčák
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BH Radio 1, Semra Duranović-Koso:
Good evening dear listeners. Here we are with another episode of «Aktuelno
sa…», and our guest today is the High Representative of the International
Community in Bosnia and Herzegovina, Miroslav Lajčák. Unlike our other shows,
due to the commitments of Mr. Lajčák, this show is being taped and will not be
broadcast live.
Welcome to the show «Aktuelno sa…».
High Representative / EU Special Representative, Miroslav
Lajčák:
Good evening and thank you for inviting me.
BH Radio 1:
In the next fifty minutes we will talk about, among other issues, the laws on
police reform, what the European policy may be in the event these laws are not
adopted in Parliament, what the international community thinks about a
referendum and secession, what role the OHR will play regarding the amendments
to the Constitution of Bosnia and Herzegovina, and so on.
Mr. Lajčák, these days you have been travelling and visiting various towns in
Bosnia and Herzegovina. Amongst other places you visited Doboj, Foča, Brčko,
Tuzla and Mostar. What is interesting, is that you talked with ordinary
citizens. What is your aim actually? What do you talk about with the
citizens?
Miroslav Lajčák:
Yes, you are right. So far I have visited six towns, in which I held meetings
and talks with the citizens. In one aspect, the aim is to explain why European
integration are a matter of crucial significance for the future of Bosnia and
Herzegovina. Also, one of the aims is to explain to the citizens that European
integration cannot be successfully realized without the active participation of
each and every citizen in the process - because this is not a task reserved for
the political elite, it is something that affects the entire society. Thirdly,
and most importantly, the aim is to hear the opinions of the citizens. The
debates we organize are split into three segments: one deals with the issue of
political stability and security; the second deals with economic cooperation,
regional cooperation and employment; and the third deals with the issues of the
younger generation, education, the civil society. I can say that in every town
we visited, we had a very active discussion. People have a great deal that they
want to say and we have already collected a series of concrete ideas that will
help us formulate a strategy for the European integration of Bosnia and
Herzegovina, which will, so to speak, be moulded to fit and that should progress
faster.
BH Radio 1:
What is the opinion of the citizens? To what extent does the opinion of the
citizens differ from the opinion of the politicians who usually say that they
speak on behalf of the people and the citizens?
Miroslav Lajčák:
So far I have not heard even one citizen say that he or she does not believe
in the European perspective of BiH or that they think an alternative exists. No.
Absolutely everyone knows that, that is the road Bosnia and Herzegovina should
be on and they are quite critical in their perception of the concrete activities
of the politicians who are meant to be leading BiH in that direction. So, their
perception is quite critical and they consider that too much time is being
wasted on political games and that we are wasting time that should instead be
devoted only to European integration.
BH Radio 1:
Did the citizens eventually ask you what the signing of the Stabilization and
Association Agreement with the European Union would specifically mean for us?
Hence, when would it be possible for the citizens of this country to actually
see improvements? Were you, maybe, asked that question?
Miroslav Lajčák:
Actually, no. The citizens actually talk more about the problems they are
facing in each of these three, but also other areas and about what they think
needs to be done. The citizens understand, possibly more intuitively, that
signing the Stabilization and Association Agreement means entering into a
serious process, an agreement process between Bosnia and Herzegovina and the
European Union. Since the start of that process we have been given clear
pointers, and know what needs to be done. We would become eligible for receiving
pre-accession financial assistance and of course, Bosnia and Herzegovina would
formally be considered a member of the European family.
BH Radio 1:
Hence, from what you have said it can be concluded that you evidently have
the support of the citizens with regards to the signing the Stabilization and
Association Agreement with the European Union and, in the long run, for a
European Bosnia and Herzegovina. You have the support of the international
community, and that was confirmed at the last session of the Peace
Implementation Council. So, you claim that you have the support of the citizens.
However, the local politicians are obviously not listening to you, and a
concrete example of this are the laws on police reform. After the initialing of
the Agreement, sometime at the end of last year, we thought we would also be
able to sign it quite easily. However, this was not the case. Last week two
sessions of the Parliament were held, yet the laws on police were not adopted.
Do you think the laws will be adopted on the 3rd of April, when the
next session is scheduled for?
Miroslav Lajčák:
Well, I do not want to even consider that it will not happen, because in that
case we would be entering a very bad phase. It is for this reason that I look to
the session scheduled for the 3rd of April as an opportunity for
those laws, and this needs to be done, to be passed. The majority of the
parliamentary parties are in favor of the passing of those laws. However,
disagreements on exactly which version of the laws should be passed also exist
between the parties. There are approximately 60 amendments…
BH Radio 1:
Have you looked at those amendments?
Miroslav Lajčák:
Yes, of course. My personal opinion is that the reason the laws were not
passed last week in Parliament is not because of a lack of will, but because of
a lack of professional preparation. This means that there was not enough
communication between the parliamentary parties before that, and then in the
last minute the parties presented new proposals, however there was not enough
time for the other parties to take a position on those proposals. Therefore, I
call on the political parties, the leaders of the political parties to make sure
that this does not happen again and that the time available, till the
3rd of April, should be used for normal communication between the
parliamentary parties that are in favor of the passing of these laws and to
reach an agreement on one text that will then be passed through parliamentary
procedure relatively simply and easily. We need to address and solve this
problem now, and not wait until the 3rd of April for the session of
the Parliament to begin.
BH Radio 1:
You said that you are acquainted with the amendments. Does the OHR find the
amendments acceptable?
Miroslav Lajčák:
We found a significant portion of the amendments acceptable, but we also
found some of the amendments unacceptable. The European Union was clear that it
expects the laws to be a confirmation, a formalization of the agreement reached
by the political leaders in Mostar and the Action Plan that was later signed in
Sarajevo. Hence, everything that falls within the framework defined by the
Mostar Declaration and the Action Plan is acceptable and it is only a question
of the political parties agreeing on which of the amendments and how to
incorporate them into the law.
There are also amendments that clearly fall outside that framework. In that
sense it is clear tome that first, the amendments have no chance of receiving
the majority vote in Parliament and second, that they are not necessary at this
time because I think that we all need to focus on what the European Union
expects from us at this moment.
BH Radio 1:
You mentioned ‘certain parties’ and ‘certain amendments’. Let us now name
some of those parties. Hence, it is with regards to the Law on Police that the
problem of irreconcilable political concepts between certain parties once again
surfaced. Let me remind our listeners that the representatives of the following
parties voted against the Law: the Party of Democratic Action (SDA), the Social
Democratic Party (SDP) and the Serb Democratic Party (SDS).
Mr. Lajčák, these days there has been speculation in the media that you
attempted to persuade Sulejman Tihić, the president of SDA, to change the
position of the SDA on the laws on police. Is that correct?
Miroslav Lajčák:
No. I never asked the Party of Democratic Action (SDA) to change its
positions. I said, and I have said this many times both in public and privately,
that I respect the position taken by the SDA, although I am not pleased by it. I
view their position as a derogation from the obligations undertaken and the
documents signed by the leaders of that party. I am in contact with all of the
political party leaders, and I had contact with Mr. Tihić…
BH Radio 1:
The very day the session of the Parliament was held?
Miroslav Lajčák:
The day before that and also on that day. We had a very normal conversation,
because I of course respect Tihić as a party leader and as a politician. My
position was that the issue…I wished to emphasize two things during my
conversation with him. First, that the issue of police reform is very important
and of strategic significance as it is related to the European perspective of
BiH and I think that the forum that needs to decide on that issue should not be
the 12-member Commission, and should instead be decided at the plenum of the
Assembly and that this is where all the parties should present their views and
positions. I respect the fact that the SDA will of course be against the laws,
however I think it would be wise for that to be discussed there, at the plenum.
Secondly, the SDP and the SDS are the opposition. The signing of the
Stabilization and Association Agreement would certainly be a success for Bosnia
and Herzegovina, and also a success for the parties that made it possible. Thus,
the success of the governing coalition is the failure of the opposition. It is
not out of the ordinary for parties that are officially the opposition to fight
against and undermine that process. However, the SDA is a party that is part of
the governing coalition, that has its ministers, that has its seats in the
Parliament, and so on. What I suggested was that it would be good to show that a
difference between the SDA and the opposition does in fact exist. The SDA is one
of the governing parties and it does have the right to vote against the laws and
I respect that, however it still has governmental obligations unlike the
opposition parties. That was the essence of our conversation. I have never
resorted to blackmail.
BH Radio 1:
Tihić claims that you accused him of being in favor of creating a
“Wahhabi-style” Bosnia. Of course, you denied this. However, does a conflict
exist between you and Mr. Tihić or the SDA or their position on the police in
BiH?
Miroslav Lajčák:
There is definitely no conflict between me and the SDA, which is one of the
key parties in Bosnia and Herzegovina, it is one of the largest parties and it
is the party of Mr. Alija Izetbegović, a party that I respect and I am aware of
the key role it plays in the political life of this country. I do not think that
any conflict exists between me and Mr.Tihić either. I regret that he made public
his interpretation of our conversation. Talks with political party leaders are
part of my mandate here and I consider that if a conversation was held between
two people neither of them should make public their interpretation of what was
said, especially if it is a false interpretation. However, I do not want to see
this as a personal conflict, because no personal conflict between us exists.
I already am in the European Union. I am fighting for a European Bosnia and
Herzegovina. I cannot comprehend that this may be a reason for someone to be
angry at me or make certain accusations against me. My vision of Bosnia and
Herzegovina is absolutely clear and I say this both publicly and privately - I
want Bosnia and Herzegovina to become a standard European country in which laws
are adhered to and where all citizens have European -level protection. I said
this during that conversation and therefore the reactions are something I cannot
explain and I regret that it has come to this. However, I do not wish to waste
any time and energy by continuing this polemic…
BH Radio 1:
A war via the media?
Miroslav Lajčák:
Absolutely. Definitely.
BH Radio 1:
Well, I assume that you know that Zlatko Lagumdžija, the president of the
SDP, a opposition party, said that the international community also exerted
certain pressure on him that day. Did you possibly speak with him that day, or
maybe some of the other representatives of the international community talked to
him?
Miroslav Lajčák:
I did not. I assume that some other representatives of the international
community may have done so. However, I can be absolutely clear and categorically
reject the word “pressure”. No pressure was exerted. Since the beginning
our position has been that the European future of BiH is a matter that is in the
hands of the local politicians, it is a process that you have to deserve. What
we are saying – both I and my associates, and the representatives of the
international community – is that we are making an effort to explain to the
politicians that have a problem with supporting the laws on police, that this is
the first step leading to not only Europe, but also to a serious reform of the
police and that while we cannot achieve 100% overnight, this is an important
step in the right direction.
I find it odd that the American ambassador and my deputy Mr. Raffi Gregorian,
who is also an American, both understand this and both publicly voice their
support for this, whilst some local politicians undermine that process and lie -
Zlatko Lagumdžija presented two untruths at the session of Parliament. The first
was when he said that adopting the Law on Police would not bring BiH closer to
the European Union. We are all well aware that the adoption of that Law is
crucial and significantly brings BiH closer to the European Union because it is
a condition for signing the Stabilization and Association Agreement. Hence, if
that will not bring BiH closer to the European Union, then nothing will. The
second untruth that he presented, and this really surprised me, was that the
European Union would sign that Agreement with BiH in May no matter what, because
of the situation in the region. That is not true. The European Union has already
shown some leniency towards Bosnia and Herzegovina, and now BiH has to complete
its part of the work.
So, I do understand that the opposition parties view the successes of the
Government as their own, personal, failures and that this is why they make
attempts to prevent or undermine progress in this area. However, the matter of
European integration must not become hostage to insignificant everyday political
battles. In all of the countries that successfully completed the process there
was no polemic about it. The European laws were passed by a large majority,
because, so to say, no one dared stand against a European future.
BH Radio 1:
You said that this kind of police reform is a step forward and that it will
move us forward on the road to Europe. However, it seems that the majority of
positions on police reform, as well as how it has now been formulated, have
remained the same, at least that is the impression we, the media, have. Of
course, it is then completely logical to ask the following, what was the point
of the parade of talks and negotiations that has been going on for years
now? The opposition, to be specific and since you have already mentioned
them, the Social Democratic Party (SDP), claim that the Mostar Declaration is
just a principle declaration and that even the Action Plan is too general, and
that therefore, anyone - meaning, all of the parties that signed both the Mostar
Declaration and the Action Plan - can interpret what is said in the documents as
however it suits them.
Miroslav Lajčák:
I think that the interpretation of the Mostar Declaration and the Action Plan
is simple and clear. What the European Union expects is that laws that represent
the official interpretation of these documents are passed. You are all aware,
and we have said this many times before and it is now necessary to show that
Bosnia and Herzegovina, with its ethnic, national character and its past, may
move forward only at a pace that is acceptable for all three constitutuent
peoples. This means that there is no room for any out-voting, outwitting or
outrunning. Of course we could be more ambitious and consider an ideal
reform, however it is apparent that such a reform has no chance of being adopted
by all three constituent peoples. The reform that is in Parliament now is the
maximum of what is possible at this moment. It is the first step. I see no
reason, no serious reason – if we are truly serious and if we are sincere about
BiH and its future – for these laws to be rejected; for you to tell me that they
are not enough; for the representatives of some political parties to request me
to impose a police reform that would be acceptable to only one of the three
constituent peoples. That would not be serious. We all know that imposing police
reform in such a manner would only lead to further destabilization.
Therefore, by passing these laws we would realize two aims. Firstly, it would
be the first step in the right direction – the creation of institutions and an
agreement, an obligation to define their competencies in more detail. The second
aim that would be realized, which is the most important one, is that the road to
Europe would open.
BH Radio 1:
Still, many consider that Europe opted for this police reform as a political
trick, as they feel that this is just a way of freezing the problems, while in
actual fact none of the segments of the problems would be solved in any way. I
recently read an interview with Mr. Željko Komšić, one of the members of the
Presidency of BiH, who said that he was quite with the international community,
and also disappointed in you. He also said that when he talks with
diplomats they most often just say: You just sign the Agreement and all of
your other problems will probably be solved in time, in other words, you
have to do what Europe tells you to do.
Miroslav Lajčák:
But, that is exactly the key to this situation - the lack of understanding
that the problems of BiH, and BiH has a series of political, economic and social
problems, cannot be solved by BiH and its resources alone. Bosnia and
Herzegovina does not have the money, the technology nor the experience to do so.
Those problems can only be solved through the process of European integration.
This cannot be done overnight. However, the adoption of European legislation,
the creation of a new political culture, the arrival of European know-how and
European funds is the only way. You cannot say that you first have to
solve your own problems and only then can you enter the European Union. You
cannot do that. That is not possible. The reason why I am committed to BiH’s
European integration is because there is no other way. Neither my country, nor
the Czech republic, Hungary or Poland could have solved their problems if they
had remained alone and it is completely naive to think that Bosnia and
Herzegovina would be able to do so. Bosnia and Herzegovina needs assistance more
than my country did.
Therefore, the politicians that are now blocking or placing conditions on the
European perspective of BiH either do not know what they are talking about or
have no idea what European perspective is or even worse, are playing a very
dirty game with the citizens of this county.
BH Radio 1:
I actually also wanted to ask you what the EU policy towards Bosnia and
Herzegovina might be in the event the laws on police are not adopted?
Miroslav Lajčák:
In the event the laws on police are not adopted – once again i would like to
say that i do not even want to consider that as an option - then the
European Union cannot do anything. Then we will again place Bosnia and
Herzegovina…
BH Radio 1:
And we will say, Move forward Europe, but without us.
Miroslav Lajčák:
Move forward Europe, but without us. If we are committed to European
integration, if we know exactly what the conditions are, and at the moment the
condition is to pass these two laws and if we refuse to pass those laws, what do
we want from Europe? What treatment do we then expect from Europe? What
can Europe possibly think of us? The only logical reaction from Europe would be
to say: Well, we are sorry. We were ready for you. When you become ready for
us, let us know. We are wasting time. We have lost too much time
already. It is not only that however, it is also a matter of that if we
are not progressing, then we are retrogressing. If we are not working on
European issues, then what are we working on? Who is to blame, and for what? And
then of course, the pre-election campaigns will once again be based on negative,
nationalist rhetoric. Maybe that is exactly what some of the political party
leaders would like to see.
BH Radio 1:
Let us talk some more about police reform. Is it possible to carry out the
police reform without the SDA? The reason why I am asking this about the SDA in
particular is because it is one of the governing parties.
Miroslav Lajčák:
In pure mathematical terms, yes.
BH Radio 1:
Yes, but how desirable is that at this moment?
Miroslav Lajčák:
From a political viewpoint, as I have said, I would like for all of the
parties, not only the SDA, but also the opposition parties to vote in favor of
all of the European laws – and the laws on police are European laws – in order
to demonstrate that a European future is more important to them than some
political disputes. Hence, here we have a mathematical proportion that is
completely different to the political one.
BH Radio 1:
Let us now talk a little about a different subject, one that comes up very
often – the referendum and the secession of Republika Srpska. You must admit
that in Bosnia and Herzegovina, and I assume that you have already learned this
from experience, a political crisis is easily created. Recently threats of
secession have been coming from Republika Srpska both from politicians, the
official representatives of Republika Srpska, as well as from certain
organizations.They are quite serious. Do you take them seriously?
Miroslav Lajčák:
No. First of all, it is absolutely clear and I want to once again say that
there is no reason for either panic or anxiety. Bosnia and Herzegovina is and
will remain a united country and its territorial integrity will be preserved.
Secession is out of the question, it is simply impermissible and impossible -
and that is the alpha and omega of this story.Everything else is just talk, talk
that is used for everyday political purposes and to keep tensions high.However,
I also have to say that such talk can be heard from both sides.From one side we
hear talk of secession and public statements in which I am accused of having no
loyalty towards Bosnia and Herzegovina, and so on – which is extremely damaging
and disrespectful.From the other side we have calls forthe abolition of
Republika Srpskaandclaims that the RS is a genocidal creation, again talk that
serves exactly the same purpose as the talk coming from the RS – one needs the
other.
BH Radio 1:
In your recent speech in Ljubljana before the European parliamentarians,
apart from the calls for secession coming from Republika Srpska, you also
mentioned the message sent out by the SDA in reaction to those calls – that
whoever does not like Bosnia and Herzegovina is free to leave. Hence, in this
speech you criticized both sides.
Miroslav Lajčák:
Not only in this speech. I always criticize both.
BH Radio 1:
Yes. However, I have to say that this reminds me, considering I spent the war
in Sarajevo, of the criticism UNPROFOR directed at the so-called ‘warring sides’
during the war. Or am I wrong?
Miroslav Lajčák:
Of course you have your personal experience, as does every citizen of Bosnia
and Herzegovina. What I really want to say is that the matter is not black and
white. That would be my first point. Secondly, it is not a matter of one
side being right and the other being wrong. All sides bear their share of the
responsibility. Thirdly, the future of Bosnia and Herzegovina cannot be built on
a foundation of hate, defiance and spite. We have to face up to the past, to the
war, and establish the truth, bring matters to a close, ensure justice has been
fully served and only then and not before that, can we talk about
reconciliation. We also need to talk about the things we have in common, about
the fact that all of the citizens are citizens of one country that is called
Bosnia and Herzegovina – no matter whether they are Bosniac, Croat, Serb or of
any other ethnicity or nationality – and that they all have to fight together to
make this a better country.
BH Radio 1:
Yes, but Mr.Lajčák, Milorad Dodik, the President of the SNSD (Alliance of
Independent Social Democrats) and the Prime Minister of Republika Srpska does
not hide that he does not care for Bosnia and Herzegovina, repeatedly stating
that he does not believe BiH will last for more than another ten years. What do
you think?
Miroslav Lajčák:
I think that this shows a lack of seriousness. A moment ago I said that none
of the leading politicians have the right, morally, to publicly express
disloyalty towards Bosnia and Herzegovina. The politicians are the ones who are
meant to lead the people and not resort to such low blows. This can be popular
only for a short time. However, as I said, we cannot build a European Bosnia and
Herzegovina on the basis of such instincts and feelings. And here the
responsibility of Milorad Dodik is absolutely evident. However, as I also said,
all of the politicians must act in accordance with their responsibilities and
should not address only their electorate and should not publicly express certain
positionsjust to gain the approval of their voters, paying no attention to the
effect such positions may have on the other citizens of Bosnia and Herzegovina.
It is necessary for those who bear responsibility for Bosnia and Herzegovina to
act in accordance with their responsibility to the entire country.
BH Radio 1:
I will remind you of a statement you recently made: “Milorad Dodik is right
when he says that he would like to hear his coalition partners acknowledge
Republika Srpska. You also said, “ If it is politically unacceptacle for the
Bosniac leaders to say, ‘Republika Srpska is a reality’ – then something is
wrong.” Why is it that “talk of ‘there will be a secession, there will not be a
secession’ also serves the purposes of some inSarajevo,” as you claim? Your
statement spurred much controversy here in Sarajevo.
Miroslav Lajčák:
I am aware of that. What I want to say is that Dayton is a reality, whether
anyone likes it or not. Not only is it a reality, but in fact everyone also
abides by it. So, even though they send messages questioning different parts of
the Dayton Agreement, the fact is that the Dayton Agreement is here in its
entirety. Dayton is not a menu from which someone can pick out what they like
and reject whatever does not suit them. After this is once and forever formally
acknowledged no one will have reason to talk about abolition or secession. That
is what I wanted to say. All I wanted was for what is a fact and what no one can
change – regardless of certain public statements and announcements - to be
confirmed.
BH Radio 1:
Are the politicians that are now saying that the current Constitution of BiH
is unfair and that Republika Srpska is an entity created by genocide allowed to
advocate the different constitution of Bosnia and Herzegovina during the process
of constitutional reform?
Miroslav Lajčák:
That is absolutely okay. I personally think that constitutional changes are
inevitable and that this will become apparent once we enter the European
integration process seriously. I will give you two reasons for that. The first
is that the current structure of the country is ineffective, and not allow BiH
to assume its obligations properly. Secondly, the current Constitution of BiH
violates a series of European norms and conventions in relation to human rights,
the rights of ethnic minorities, and similar. So, we already have two reasons. I
am against placing any conditions before the start of the negotiations on
constitutional reform. We cannot send messages along the lines of ‘ I will talk
about that, but I will not talk about this.’ Negotiations on constitutional
changes that apply to only one part of the territory of BiH are not
constitutional negotiations and that is not a serious approach. Again, there is
too much propaganda that has already poisoned the atmosphere and shown that it
is impossible to have serious talks about the constitution in such an
atmosphere, because instead of serious talks what we actually got was
pre-election propaganda. This is why we proposed that talks on constitutional
changes should be temporarily suspended and that we should first focus on
adopting laws related to the European perspective of the
country.
BH Radio 1:
Maybe later we will talk some more about the Constitution. However, before
that, do you share my view that the anxiety of some of the Bosniac politicians
is generated by the fact that you have not removed from office any of the Serb
politicians for anti-Dayton activities, and it is not as if you did not have
enough reason to do so?
Miroslav Lajčák:
I have had reason to do so, of course. Let me answer your question with a
question. So many politicians were removed from office by my predecessors and as
a result do we now have a political elite with which we are all satisfied, and
which is clearly leading this country towards Europe? Has the political
atmosphere changed? Is removing politicians from office the best way for this
country to move forward?
Personally, I think that removing politicians from office is the last and not
the first option and as I said, it is possible to accomplish many things
by using the Bonn powers, but what is certain is that you cannot change people’s
opinions with them. It would be popular to act like a dictator and remove
politicians from office. However, I need to and have to think two-three steps
ahead and if my decision would only create more tension and more, so to say,
hate among the three constituent peoples, then it would not be a good decision.
That is why I have chosen a less spectacular path, a path that the citizens
probably do not fully understand, but which is, and I am convinced of this, the
better path for BiH in 2008. Since we have been talking about the transition of
the OHR and its closure for the last two years, what I really would like to see
and what I am advocating is for the politicians to talk, make decisions and to
realize that by ignoring things they are leading this country backwards instead
of forward. At the same time I would like to say that my Bonn powers exist and I
am prepared to use them. The Bonn powers are solely my responsibility and my
competency.
BH Radio 1:
Will you be more decisive in using your powers in the event someone
undermines the Dayton Peace Agreement? Just now you basically said that you
will.
Miroslav Lajčák:
I have no problems with decisiveness, at the same time I am a responsible
person.
BH Radio 1:
However, you still consider that is not the solution for Bosnia and
Herzegovina?
Miroslav Lajčák:
I think that how people would like to see me use my Bonn powers would, in
view of the situation today, only create additional problems and would not solve
any problems, because the political leaders, regardless of how much we like them
or not, are the legitimate result of the elections – they were elected by the
voters.
BH Radio 1:
Did the citizens, now when you spoke with them, ask you, why don’t you
remove so and so from office?Apart from the politicians, do the citizens
make such suggestions? Is it correct that the politicians from Sarajevo most
often request that you remove someone from office?
Miroslav Lajčák:
Well of course, the citizens have become used to that in a way and so of
course they also make suggestions that I should remove someone from office. The
citizens in Republika Srpska suggest I should remove one of the Bosniac
politicians, while the citizens in the Federation suggest I should remove a Serb
politician. And that is exactly what I am talking about. By ignoring that these
politicians have been legitimately elected and that they are supported by people
and that by removing those politicians from office you cannot change the opinion
of the people who elected them. I am not saying that such a question or that
such a possibility does not exist. It does. My Bonn powers exist. I have not and
I will not renounce my Bonn powers. All I am saying is that we cannot bring the
discussion down to such a primitive level, we cannot act along the lines of what
Stalin said, “no man, no problem”. Matters are much more complex then that,
especially in Bosnia and Herzegovina.
BH Radio 1:
In a way your answer gives me reason to ask you the following question. The
international community, on the basis of the Dayton Peace Agreement, took on the
responsibility to make Bosnia and Herzegovina a stable country. However, as far
back as during Mr. Wolfgang Petritsch’s mandate a partnership between the OHR
and the local government was promoted, and by doing this the international
community started handing over more and more responsibility to the local
political leaders who have in no way demonstrated that they are responsible and
capable. Is the stabilization of BiH the responsibility of the international
community or the local politicians?
Miroslav Lajčák:
Both, because in the beginning, as well as now, the principle idea of the
international community was never to turn Bosnia and Herzegovina into some
eternal reservation or an international protectorate. The aim of the
international community is to create conditions, to create one political system
and to create the pre-conditions necessary for this country to function
normally. I recently met with a man who had worked in the OHR 12 years ago, and
he told me that he had arrived here at the time in to close the OHR, that those
were the political instructions even then. You are aware that sine 2005, 2006
the closure of the OHR has been seriously talked about and it is now the year
2008.
Therefore, by extending the mandate of the OHR and by extending the massive
Bonn powers and the massive participation of the international community in the
political affairs of this country it is being shown that this country has not
matured and is not capable of handling its own affairs. Hence, that would be a
failure for both BiH and the international community. The aim, the plan in the
beginning was and remains till date us to be less and lss the patron and more
and more a partner.
The international community will not leave BiH, it will remain here in large
numbers. However, we want to achieve a situation in which the key representative
of the international community will no longer be the High Representative, and
instead this role will be passed on to the EU Special Representative who will be
a partner and help lead this country, while the sole responsibility for Bosnia
and Herzegovina will of course, lie with the local
politicians.
Today, whether you like it or not, we are in the process of transition. The
OHR is here, however we do not wish to see the OHR as a key political player any
longer. The OHR is here to guarantee: that you do not stray from the right
path; that no one abuses their power; that the Dayton Peace Agreement is
not undermined; that the rights of any individual, any of the citizens of BiH
are not infringed; that no threats to the territorial integrity of Bosnia and
Herzegovina are made. So, we are here as a guarantee, or, so to say, to watch
your back. However at the same time, we are also here to promote this next phase
of partnership or in other words, the partnership phase of our engagement in
this country. The citizens of Bosnia and Herzegovina should not complain about
this, instead they should welcome this move. I know that they are sceptic of how
the local politicians can lead this country, and this is why it is necessary to
take advantage of the presence of the international community, which wishes to
help this country.
BH Radio 1:
It seems that at its last session, the Peace Implementation Council reached a
compromise solution. Bosnia and Herzegovina was told that after it fulfills five
conditions the OHR will be closed.So, there are no deadlines. The conditions
have been set. Could you briefly explain what those conditions are?
Miroslav Lajčák:
Yes. I think that setting deadlines is not helpful, as when that is done
everyone concentrates on the dates instead of their work. Therefore we set five
conditions that must be fulfilled, and they are as follows: resolving the issue
of state property and military property; resolving the status of Brčko;
resolving the fiscal sustainability of this country, which means adopting laws
on the National Fiscal Council and the allocation of indirect taxation revenue;
and the last condition is the rule of justice – passing a state-level strategy
for the judicial sector and resolving issues related to war crimes, the place of
residence of foreigners and the right to asylum. The adoption of these system
laws would mean that we have achieved a certain level and that there is no going
back. We also said that the international community will not make a decision on
closing the OHR until BiH signs the Stabilization and Association Agreement, and
of course a normal political atmosphere is also one of the
conditions.
Therefore, none of those conditions are something new, they are not a
surprise. Those issues have been on the agenda for several years now. From the
long list of laws and issues that the institutions of BiH are working on, we
selected these five, which in our opinion are the most significant. Of course,
we now expect the local institutions to fulfill these conditions.
BH Radio 1:
Let’s briefly talk about constitutional reform. Constitutional changes were
hardly even mentioned in the Declaration of the Peace Implementation Council.
You said that we have not even started with actual constitutional reform nor
actual talk on the subject, although various parties already have specific
solutions and proposals – ranging from regionalization to federalization – and
some have even offered declarations. Since everything here is a political battle
do you think that the constitutional changes will fall victim to political
battling?
Miroslav Lajčák:
They cannot and certainly will not. I am of course disappointed with the
level of discussion regarding constitutional amendments – meaning, the
discussions we have seen so far, specifically the discussions from the end of
last and the beginning of this year – because there are three entirely different
concepts. The only thing those concepts have in common is that they express the
position of only one people and completely ignore the existence, let alone the
positions of the other two peoples. Negotiations on constitutional changes
cannot be held along these lines, it is just too low.
As I have already said, there is no escaping constitutional change. On the
other hand, constitutional changes cannot be imposed. This country has to mature
for constitutional change. This can only be achieved through the European
integration process – in order to see why changes are necessary – because at the
moment everyone has a different opinion on the Dayton Agreement. However, once
we begin that process the elements of the current constitution that are neither
right nor good, and that simply prevent us from moving forward will become
obvious. This is not an artificial condition, it is not something that someone
just made up and then came and said, okay, now you have to change your
Constitution.
BH Radio 1:
What role will the OHR play in this? In the end is it possible that you might
offer some piece of paper or will you really leave everything to the local
political leaders?
Miroslav Lajčák:
Neither. Our role here is an active one and we would like to see ourselves as
a partner, a mediator and we want to help make sure that the new constitution is
in line with European standards, because it will be a European constitution. Of
course, we have already and will continue to offer expert assistance on every
political agreement that needs to be amended or translated into legislation –
this requires expertise and capacities, which the international community
possesses and is ready to offer.
BH Radio 1:
You are aware that the citizens are accusing the politicians of bribery and
corruption. I assume that they have told you this. What is happening with the
OHR’s Anti-corruption Team? For a long time now you have been saying that the
team is in the final phase and should start working anytime now.
Miroslav Lajčák:
Yes, the citizens are having problems with corruption. Of course that is also
one of the issues that must be solved during the European integration process.
The Anti-corruption Team is in place. We reached a decision and came to the
conclusion that it would be best if the Team operated in an unobtrusive
manner.
BH Radio 1:
So, it has started working, but it’s just that we do not know that? Or that
we will soon find out?
Miroslav Lajčák:
Yes, of course. You will soon find out.
BH Radio 1:
Will we possibly find out if the Anti-corruption Team has brought criminal
charges against…
Miroslav Lajčák:
It is not the role of the Anti-corruption Team to bring criminal charges
against anyone. The Anti-corruption Team analyses the information we have, the
information we receive and in the final phase of their work they will forward
that information and their analyses to the judicial organs of Bosnia and
Herzegovina. We do not want this Team to take over the role of the local
institutions, that would be undermining the institutions of BiH. We are here to
help – we have our experience, our information and certain instruments -
in the fight againstcrime and corruption.
BH Radio 1:
Still I have to ask you whether politics will possibly play a role here as
well, and so the most important politicians will not be accused?
Miroslav Lajčák:
That is a very speculative question. And as you know, I do not like to answer
speculative questions.
BH Radio 1:
We are nearing the end of the show, but this is a question I have to
ask. So, I have just two more questions. Most of the citizens of Bosnia
and Herzegovina are frustrated by the visa requirements for BiH citizens
and by the long waiting lines in front of European embassies, as well as the
high visa fees, and by how they are treated at the borders of the European
Union, regardless of whether they are sportsmen, journalists, professors,
writers or ordinary citizens. What concrete action has the OHR taken, and if it
already has not will it, in order for this to change?
Miroslav Lajčák:
I am absolutely familiar with the frustration, which is justified, of the
citizens of Bosnia and Herzegovina with the visa restrictions and of course we
advocate visa facilitation. You know that since the 1st of
Januaryvisa issuance restrictions were somewhat eased. The visa facilitation
process is beginning now. At the same time, I have to emphasize that the visa
restrictions are closely related to the progress this country makes towards
Europe. In other words, the politicians cannot reject the idea of a European
perspective and yet at the same time complain about visa restrictions,
especially because visas are a matter of the internal security ofeach country.
The Ministers of the Interior of the member states of the European Union are the
ones making the decisions about visas. They will not vote in favor of
facilitating visa issuance for a country that shows no desire to move forward
towards European integration and that does not demonstrate readiness to accept
European values and basically rejects everything coming from the European Union,
but at the same time still want visa-free travel. That does not make any sense
and of course, if this continues to be the case then there will be no visa
facilitation.
Therefore, everyone that has a problem with the current visa restrictions
should support thestabilization and association process, because that is
the process that will lead to visa-free travel.
BH Radio 1:
And my last question is will you, as your predecessors have done, once your
mandate in Bosnia and Herzegovina comes to an end, write a book about your work
in this country?
Miroslav Lajčák:
I love this question. No, I will not write a book. I am a diplomat. I think
that any information that I receive during my mandate is not my personal,
private information and that the only reason I attained that information is
because of the mandate I am performing on behalf of the international community,
and therefore I have no right to…
BH Radio 1:
Although nowadays it is very popular to write a book.
Miroslav Lajčák:
Yes, it is popular. However, the question is whether it is useful, whether it
helps - and I am quite sceptic of that. I certainly have no intention of writing
a book.
BH Radio 1:
Mr. Lajčák, thank you very much. Well, that brings us to the end of today’s
show. Once again, thank you for being BH Radio One’s guest. Dear listeners,
thank you for your attention, I hope you will join us again next Thursday and
please keep listening to the program of BH radio 1.
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